Inside CVC: A Nation by Design: Dawn Lim on AI's Human Edge, Trust in Government, and the Business Case for Aging Well

Dawn Lim is Executive Director of the DesignSingapore Council, Singapore's national agency for design, and spent over a decade before that at the Economic Development Board working with Fortune 500 companies on innovation and investment. 

In this conversation, Dawn joins Philipp and Steve to unpack what it means to treat design not as aesthetics but as a strategic capability for governing a country, walking through Singapore's ten-year design master plan built around one ambition: a nation that is more livable, lovable, and limitless. She makes the case that as AI gets more powerful, human judgment, the ability to ask the right question and make the right call for the moment, becomes the scarcer and more valuable skill. She also explains why the government-citizen trust behind Singapore's fast development can't be copied wholesale, and why the aging population is one of the largest underexplored business opportunities for corporations still treating care as a niche.

A case for giving design an actual seat at the table, from the person building the national playbook for it.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Welcome to Inside CVC, the podcast that brings together leaders in innovation and capital investment to explore the trends shaping the business of corporate venture capital. I'm your host, Steve Schmith, and together with Philipp Willigmann, we're speaking with corporate investors, entrepreneurs and ecosystem builders. Driving the Future of Innovation.

Inside CVC is brought to you by u-path Advisors, helping corporations and startups unlock sustainable growth through strategic partnerships. To learn more, visit u-path.com. That's the letter "U" dash path.com. And to catch up on all of our episodes, search Inside CVC on your favorite podcast platform or visit u-path.com/podcast. 

In this episode, we sit down with Dawn Lim, executive director of the Designsingapore Council, Singapore's National Agency for design. In this conversation, we talk about how Singapore treats design as a strategic tool for governing a nation, not just building products. Why human judgment becomes more valuable, not less, as AI gets more powerful. Why the trust between Singapore's government and its citizens took decades to build and can't be copied wholesale by other nations, and why? The ageing population is one of the largest underexplored business opportunities for corporations still treating care as a niche. We close on Dawn's case for why design deserves an actual seat at the decision making table. Here's our conversation with Dawn Lim. 

Dawn, welcome to Inside CVC. How are you? I'm good. Thanks very much, Steve. I'm happy to be here with you and Philip. Oh, thank you for joining us. Very interesting, very exciting conversation today, bringing us a point of view of what is underway and what you're leading in Singapore. So why don't we start with that? Um, can you explain what design Singapore is? You know what the organization mission is and, and so forth. Of course. Uh, so Designsingapore Council is Singapore's National agency for design. And, uh, our job at the council is to help businesses, government, uh, communities use design as a capability to solve problems and to create value economically, as well as improve everyday life from a social perspective. And at the end of the day, uh, what success looks like for us is a Singapore, a city, a nation that is more innovative, more competitive, a better place to live by design. You came from an economic development background in in Singapore. And I think when most people hear the word design, certainly our audience is familiar with design thinking. I think that naturally goes to other areas of graphic design and fashion, right? Etc. there are all sorts of quote unquote design in the world. When did you realize that that that notion of design could be used as a tool for shaping economies, not just products or spaces? You know, I would say it was a gradual journey, and I don't think it was a single aha moment. Um, at the Economic Development Board, which is where I was previously. Uh, we work a lot with multinational corporations, fortune five hundred companies all over the world. Right. And these are the movers and shakers of all the products, services, solutions that we use in our daily lives, whether in business or in our personal, uh, capacity. And in those engagements, uh, I had the chance to talk to them about how they were using, uh, technology innovation to drive, uh, better products, better services and experiences that their users or consumers actually valued. Um, and I think that was the more obvious part about where design could come in. Right. As part of that, uh, journey. But then when I had to wear the hat of what Singapore as an investment destination and, and innovation ecosystem could then support such ambitions from these companies. That's actually where the aha moment started to creep in, because it was about designing systems that could also accommodate the design journeys at the individual business level. And then that's really where you see how design can shape economies, because it's about putting together the different infrastructure, soft and hard policies, right? Talent, all those things are actually, uh, conditions that you need to design for a successful economy. John, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Um, great to bring you all the way from from Singapore to all our listeners around the world. Um, on various conferences, you were speaking about the human edge in AI, uh, which is a very timely hook in my opinion, because in most cases people use AI and talk about efficiency. Can you maybe explain what is the human edge and why does it matter now? So I'm a firm believer that, um, as AI becomes more and more powerful, uh, human judgment actually becomes more valuable, uh, because it's really about context and choices, right? Um, and what technology does is that it lowers the floor for more people to participate in, but conversely, it also raises the ceiling of what good looks like and what human value brings to the table and the human edge. In the era that we're in, is precisely where it is our job to ask the right questions about what what kind of problem are we solving? Right. And then being able to exercise that judgment in the context of the problem, and then making the choices that are right for the times, right for the cultural context, right, right for the situation. And so all the, the extraordinary ability of AI in generating answers. And to the best extent that you can prompt it, it gives you some form of reference. It still requires that human element of taste to be able to say, actually, this is what is good for what we need at this point in time. And so this human edge will increasingly become more and more valuable, uh, in my opinion. So to do a follow up on this, you know, in many conversation, um, we had on AI because they're talking about AI is going to be really, really difficult for humans, for work, for labor. How, how are you thinking about this in your design work and, you know, designing a nation, um, with AI in mind, but to essentially create a, you know, create more value for, for humans, for humanity. Yeah. So, uh, you know, in Singapore, we, we, we call ourselves a nation by design, right? And, and if you're familiar, you know, slightly with, with our history, we're very, very young nation, uh, that just celebrated sixty years of independence. Um, and compared to the US or Europe that has had centuries, right? Hundreds of years of, uh, human development. We've had sixty. Right. So the, the amount of, uh, investment and commitment Technology. Technology as a way to augment, uh, the development of this country actually is very high because we have seen that how that investment has helped to accelerate, uh, Singapore's, uh, development from third world to first in one century or less than one century, essentially. Right. And so the mindset that we have is that everything about this country didn't just happen by itself. Uh, you know, someone had to think about it, someone designed it and someone made it happen. And as we approach this AI era, I think we're quite embracing about what AI can do for the nation. Uh, we are cognizant that there are pitfalls, there are ethical choices that need to be made, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we should then strike it off entirely. I think this is where the unique situation of where, uh, policy, uh, industry and society needs to come together on making those collective choices about what is good for progress, and yet what we need to safeguard for humanity and for our society. So we actually had a couple of conversations about Singapore in the in past shows, but also about Asia. And, um, when I'm coming back to Europe, you also, I hear a lot of people reference Singapore as a great example. Um, but also people talk about Singapore as a nation, which is highly planned, but listening to you, um, it sounds there's something deeper, right? A nation that designs itself. What, what does it mean? Uh, I think the Singapore is a very unique, um, situation. Right. Uh, and we have a very unique history and context that's specific to, to our country. I think one of the things that has worked for us is that there's a very high level of trust between government and its people. And so this allows us, as a nation, to use design at a very high strategic national level to shape outcomes and impact that we want to see, particularly through public service and how it delivers value to industry, to its citizens, right, and to society at large. And so then design as a mindset, not just as a practice about constantly reinventing ourselves to stay relevant and competitive in the global arena. That's a national mindset, part of our DNA in a way, how we constantly adapt and improve ourselves. You said something there that I want to follow up on, and that was the word trust. We talk about that often in our conversations. Trust between management teams, trust on the board. Um, that comes up frequently in our conversation. You said it in the context of the people trust government. And just to make sure I'm not speaking for you, is that I heard that correctly. Yeah. I think compared to a lot of other countries, there is a very high trust, uh, in Singapore between, um, the government and its people. And I think that's the part that I want to maybe explore a little bit further because in many markets, the US being one, Philip and I have talked about this one on one privately, similar patterns emerging in Germany, across Europe. My question is, how does a government replicate building trust in these areas based on what Singapore's approach has been. I think it's difficult to say how we can just replicate trust, because trust is actually built over time. Uh, and it's also a function of, uh, credibility from a track record perspective. So you say what you do and you do what you say, right? And I think that's also kind of the DNA that Singapore is known for. Uh, when businesses come to Singapore, you, you know, that when we say what we, when we say something, we will do it right. And when we do it, when we, we do what we say, we say what we do, right. So I think there's that level of reputational trust and track record that has, um, done as well, uh, through the years and also embedded again into the DNA and the mindset of the people here. Uh, and again, I think that has to go back into the specific context and history of Singapore. Uh, Having to, uh, develop very quickly in a much shorter period of time to take our seat at the global table and therefore building up that trust cachet, uh, both domestically but also internationally became a very important pillar and foundation for us to take our seat at that global table. And so I think it's hard to say what you, uh, what to replicate easily. I think it's very much situated in the cultural and historical context. And, but also the, the, the commitment as a country for where we wanted to be and where we are able to be today. And I think long term commitment is certainly an interesting right as a business executive. Right. There are many markets around the world that sort of ebb and flow in that that based on election cycles and so forth. And so that that sort of commitment, that certainty, I'm sure, goes a long way to building that trust. Let's stick with the DNA piece for me. I'm sorry, did I cut you off? No, I think I was I was going to add that, um, uh, I mean, we, we are a democratic society as, as all, um, many, many nations are. Um, and I think what's perhaps, uh, unique to us is that, uh, our election cycles run, you know, four to five years, uh, which is quite typical for our parliamentary democracy. Uh, but the civil service remains constant, uh, regardless of the political cycles. And the civil service is, um, is positioned as the foundation for a lot of the way the public services are delivered and they are given the remit, um, to serve the people, uh, in, in whatever cycles, um, that the nation may go through. So I think that's actually an important part of our system and our infrastructure that allows us to do what we do. That's a great point. It also, you know, gets to that DNA piece that you were talking about, you have a duty, right, as a citizen of, of Singapore and, and, and the service piece of it. And that piece of it as well. Absolutely. Spot on. Sticking I have a yeah. Go ahead. I have a follow up if you don't mind if I, if I jump in here and maybe you were going to ask the same question, but I don't want to put you on the spot Don. But, you know, given the work you have done around designing a twenty thirty five, um, is there something where you say this could also work in Europe, this could also work in the US or Germany. Is there some lessons learned, um for, for other nations, because we are coming in a world which becomes so much more complex. Um, and I feel like without putting a strong vision out there as a region, as a country, we will struggle. Um, that's typically not what I've seen in Germany happening or in the US. Um, definitely not at the same level than what you guys are working on, but are there some, you know, other things you feel like, well, other nations could do something similar? So I can tell you what we learned actually in this process of developing our twenty thirty five, uh, ten year design masterplan for Singapore. I think the first condition that worked for us, and I'm so blessed and privileged to be in a nation that prioritizes design and, uh, give space for design as a national agenda. And the fact that there is a national design agency that allows us to use design to lift and elevate the sophistication of products, services, experiences, right, for a much better lived experience, um, in the nation. Uh, secondly, uh, one of the things we learned in this process was it is so important to be able to bring the industry and the community alongside to co-own that vision. What we did was we spent the better half of a year engaging more than six thousand people across different stakeholders from professional designers, educators, students, uh, public service businesses, members of the public to synthesize what they felt they wanted. And they aspired and hoped for, uh, for Singapore as a nation and where design could play a role in that. And that actually helped us shape all the inputs and the insights that are in our ten year master plan, the strategy and the products that we've put out and the outcomes that we want to see. Uh, and I think that's one of the most powerful things about setting that vision is that it was co-developed. And therefore, uh, the people that were doing this for have a stake in it. I want to come back very briefly to the work you have been leading around design twenty thirty five. Um, because one thing which stuck with me was like, it's about Singapore becoming more liveable, more lovable and limitless by design. I traveled to Singapore quite a bit like three, four times per year. I love Singapore, I love the region, and it's already quite liveable. So given you know, you're thinking about the future, what does it actually mean in practice? How are you envisioning Singapore in twenty thirty five and beyond to achieve this amazing aspiration? Let me talk a little bit first about this, uh, livable, lovable, and limitless by design. I think you're right. Singapore is very livable, as are many cities in the world. I think intuitively, we all understand what livable means, right? And there are certain metrics, uh, that are sort of universally accepted, uh, in terms of what Liverpool means, right? Safety, security, cost of living, accessibility and so on and so forth. Um, and we wanted to stretch it one step further because Liverpool to us means that emotional resonance, the sense of belonging and identity and connectedness that people feel to a place, and you can put in all the physical elements of livability, but then what makes a city or a place livable, for which you have an emotional connection to it, that the physical metrics cannot fail. And that's also where people start to identify home, right? Start to identify a place that they belong. And limitless for us is where design can open up opportunities. Um, allows us to draw outside the limits of what we know today to create even more opportunity. More exciting, um, creations that don't exist today. And so we, we strongly feel that putting the three L's together, underpinned by that design mindset and also the design capabilities will actually help propel Singapore into the next decade. Okay. Um, and why is this important? Because the future is in cities, right? And we can see the strong urbanisation, right? As people, more and more people move into the cities and the cities are where it's at. Um, and in the global war for talent, I shouldn't use war, but you know, talent, global talent is, is, is a global play. It's a play, right? And if you could pick anywhere in the world to live, where would you pick and why? And I think that's why for us, the three L's coming together becomes that powerful, unique advantage for a city like Singapore that makes us stand out to be able to say, this is why this is a great city, but this is also because everybody's potential can be realised here by design. I love it. Um, before I want to bring back the conversation to corporate corporate innovation and, um, how you're thinking also involving big corporates to create this, this vision for Singapore. Um, on a personal level, um, you also have spoken a lot about care, health care, older people, older society. Um, and in my personal travels to Singapore and the work I'm, I'm doing, uh, with people who have a disability, mental, physical disabilities, I see Singapore also at the forefront. So in the work you're doing, um, I think caring communities is a big piece of it, right? And taking care of, um, the aging communities. Singapore is, is super aged already. Um, so can you maybe share a little bit about, um, how, yeah, how are you thinking and why, why does care belong in the center of national design and why it is such an emphasis for you, uh, in Singapore, um, to make sure that yeah, the people are taken care of and what it will give back to community and society. And you're right, Singapore is considered a super aged society by twenty thirty. Uh, one in four people will be over the age of sixty five. And we are only a nation of six million people. So you can think about what those numbers, uh, would look like, right? And so this becomes as much an economic issue as it is a social issue and a very pressing one, because, as you all know. With ageing populations, there's a heavier burden of healthcare on, on, on the country, on the city. Right. But also with a declining birth rate in, in Singapore, we're also not replenishing the productive workforce at the same rate as our retiring workforce. So over time, we will need to ensure that the burden of care doesn't overweigh on the country's ability to still be innovative, regenerative, and progressive, and therefore, care becomes an important part, especially for design, because we can design so much around care that is not just about healthcare interventions, but really about community care. And we know that one of the biggest pandemics of this generation is actually loneliness. Uh, in seniors. Right. And, and we see there's a lot of news all over the world about senior isolation, uh, seniors who die alone and no one discovers them. Right. And that's actually a social pandemic that we don't talk about enough. And in Singapore, we want to make sure we don't get to that point where our society becomes, uh, so isolated and disconnected that the seniors who are very much part of society are not getting the care they receive. And we design has a big part to play here because it's about finding ways to activate and design community care programs, uh, senior citizen activations that allows them to remain active contributors to society in whatever way that, uh, we might be able to design that, but also to enable the next generation to see how. That they can care for themselves today such that they remain active, healthy, contributing members of society even as they continue to age. Uh, and this, this silver economy, as we call it, right? It's a huge opportunity to innovate, uh, and for which there's a lot of products, services, experiences that have yet to be developed, but there's so much that can be done there. You make such a strong case for this topic. Yet we've had conversations on the show. That seem to suggest that innovating for for disabilities, for inclusion. Right. We've had a guest on the show talking about everybody in the world is going to be disabled simply because of the effects of aging. What you're describing seems to be a niche area for corporates in terms of where they innovate, how they grow, how they think about strategically growing. You make a perfect case for it, not only from a business aspect, but from the humanity, the good for society. The conversations we've had on the show seem to indicate that that sort of innovation, that sort of investment area opportunity is, is, is still maybe a niche place. So for those organizations that are listening, what can you share? What's the business case for corporations at scale to go more broadly into investing these areas to create the sort of things that you describe are going on in Singapore? You know, I would say that the the aging population, perhaps in many people's minds and allow me to generalize here, right, just for the for the purpose of this compilation, um, is that we see them as infantilized weak, uh, incapable of, uh, making decisions for themselves. Right. But in the, in, in actual fact, uh, many of us aging want to live healthy lives, autonomous independent lives, right? High quality of lives, uh, for which we have the buying power to be able to sustain that. And that's a very different definition of that customer segment from one that is in a, in has been unable to, uh, make such high quality decisions for a kind of lifestyle that they want to lead even as they are aging. So I think that's perhaps one, uh, reframing of the definition of that, of that customer segment in terms of the opportunity that is available there. I know for sure that, uh, I want to age with dignity, but I want to age actively, right? Being able to do the things that I do today, perhaps with a few more creaky bones. Right? Uh, biology is real. Yeah, but. But I don't want to give up my quality of life. Being strapped to a a nursing home or a hospital bed if I can help it. And so the decisions that I make today are my lifestyle and, um, my health will determine that kind of lifestyle. I will live in the next, you know, couple of decades. Right? But if you think about someone like me as a, uh, customer target for companies looking at, well, how do we serve this market of care, then I think it's a very different type of service product solution that you're designing for, because the choices that this group will make will be fundamentally quite different from, uh, those that are, you know, um, medically or clinically challenged, right? And so that's, that's one, that's one frame of mind. The other thing is I found that when we design for inclusiveness, and I know if I have inclusiveness has a bit of a bad rep, but actually, if you think about it, when we, when we design for the ones who need it most, everybody benefits from it. And I'll give you an example. So, I mean, I've been a caregiver for my parents, you know, for, for, for two decades, right? And, you know, we've, we've used wheelchairs, walking sticks, etc.. And when you walk on the street, uh, and on the curb, for example, with the, the road and the pedestrian, uh, curb where the curb dips for a wheelchair, for example, to then get onto the road. Right. Um, that works for someone in a wheelchair, but it also works for a parent with a baby in a stroller. And we don't think about that as a handicap, right. But it's the exact same usage and the same system is benefiting two different groups of people, but we only see the one that's inconveniencing us. We don't actually see that it benefits another group that also needs it. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, sticking with that design sort of thinking, um, you're at a table with global CEOs. They ask you the question, what do you think we can redesign? What would you tell them? Everything. Everything. Fair answer. Fair. Good. Okay. Um. Well, I mean, we could answer this on many levels, but perhaps, you know, from a leadership perspective, I think one thing that doesn't get enough of is giving design a seat at the decision making table. Um, I think there's still a lot of perception that Design is a great. From an aesthetics perspective, it's good to have. But actually, if you gave designers seat at the decision making table and made it a strategic, uh, advantage for the company and for the business, you stop optimizing just for efficiency, but actually you start designing for strategic competitive advantage because you're delivering something that solves a real problem. That inspires confidence, but also it will give you that level of brand loyalty and following, because it has been designed so well for the clients, the customers that you are serving. And I think that is such a critical business advantage that is so underutilized today. And the ROI and the shareholder value and the stakeholder value will all come from that completely. Yes. Exactly right. But so often we optimize just for efficiency. And the bottom line because of the way the markets work today. Um, and I would love to see more businesses just design a solid product, right? Because it just solves a real problem and everybody came around it. When you imagine Singapore in twenty fifty, what should be true for the economy? What should be true for its people? You know, I would love Singapore to be known not just as an efficient economy, but an inspiring country and a country where, um, people are allowed to fulfill their potential because there are so many opportunities, um, where we are innovative, but also creative. You know, the city is vibrant again, not just economically but also culturally. And the society is filled with people who are healthy physically and mentally because they are well connected, because we've designed a nation that allows people to be connected and optimistic about their future. 

That's it for this week's episode of Inside CVC. Before we go, a quick note that we're going to take a little break. We'll be back in September with new episodes. In the meantime, there are more than fifty episodes of Inside CVC, as well as our special series Boardrooms in Transition. You can find more at u-path.com. That's letter "U" dash path.com. As always, thanks for listening. We'll see you in September.