Inside CVC: The Water Reckoning: Why Corporations Can’t Ignore the Crisis Anymore with J. Carl Ganter

 J. Carl Ganter, founder of Circle of Blue, joins Inside CVC by u-path to explore water scarcity as a rising threat to corporate employees, supply chains, operations, and customers. With a journalist’s eye and an innovator’s urgency, the advisor to the World Economic Forum and global business leaders explains why this issue demands board-level attention — and the vital role CVCs can play in accelerating solutions. 

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Steve 0:00

J. Carl Ganter is a captivating storyteller, and these days he's busy telling a lot of stories. Drawing on his experiences as a photojournalist for National Geographic, TV news investigative reporter, and environmental reporter for NPR, to talk about a topic he's very passionate about. A topic he also describes as an existential threat to corporations worldwide. Water. Specifically, the scarcity and security of water, and how the lack of both in countries and cities around the world represents a clear and present supply chain risk to some of the largest multinational companies on the planet, threatening their operations, employees, customers, and, well, you get it. The founder and managing director of Circle of Blue, an organization dedicated to taking a systematic approach to water crises and solutions, works closely with organizations like the World Economic Forum and business leaders around the world on ways to address and mitigate water-related supply chain risk. A risk he says is unlike other risks because it can't be fixed alone. What's the point, he says, if you fix your own problem and everyone around you is still dying? Ganter believes CVCs and corporations are in a unique position to accelerate innovation and change in addressing water scarcity and security. He also believes the topic has fallen in priority among boards of directors in recent years, opting for a we'll deal with it later approach. Well, he says, later has arrived, particularly when you think of innovations like AI and how companies are making massive investments in AI to create a competitive advantage and the exponential demand for energy and water to power and cool data centers. And that's just one example. The good news, he sees crisis creating change and accelerating innovation around the world, whether exploring new ways to desalinate water in the Middle East or reinvesting in the United States water infrastructure system. Still, there's a lot of work to be done. What roles do corporate venture functions and the companies they represent have in addressing water scarcity and security? And to whom in the company does the responsibility fall? What influence does United States leadership in agriculture and farming have globally? And where are there opportunities to drive efficiency and speed innovation? And finally, is humanity hurtling towards some catastrophic water-related black swan moment that will ultimately result in systemic change? Or are those moments already happening? every single day. And what's missing are the stories and the storytellers that help connect the dots. Welcome to Inside CVC, a podcast series where we bring together leaders in corporate venture capital, entrepreneurs, traditional venture capitalists, and private equity investors, educators, and leaders in public policy to explore the latest trends, business issues, and geopolitical disruption uncertainty impacting the business of corporate venture capital. I'm your host, Steve Smith, and our show is brought to you by U-Path Advice. What do Beijing, Mexico City, Silicon Valley, Sao Paulo, Miami, and Melbourne all have in common? They are among the cities globally currently recognized as leaders in attracting business investment in innovation, technology, and manufacturing. They are also all cities grappling with challenges related to water scarcity and security. For companies and their corporate venture teams investing in these and other places around the world, it's a risk that deserves attention from the highest levels of management. Why? We start today's conversation with J. Carl Cantor exploring that question.

J Carl 3:48

So I'm really interested in the corporate venture capital world because it's a little different than the more compressed timelines of, say, venture capital and exit strategies and all the other different pieces. Right now, there's no exit strategy for the water planet. And we're facing major global water challenges around the world. And they're all different, but they're also all connected. And they're connected to everything that we care about. Most basically, of course, fresh water supplies, drinking water and sanitation human dignity, just kind of basic life biodiversity. But then they're also deeply connected, of course, to food supplies. You can't have food without water. And the food footprint, water footprint, is massive. About 70% of the usage of fresh water is food. And, of course, energy. It takes a lot of water to generate energy, whether you're running hydropower or you're cooling a fossil fuel plant. A lot of water to power our energy needs, and then also it takes a lot of energy to move and treat water. So for example, in California spends about 19 to 20% of its electricity moving and treating water, just moving and treating water. So why does that affect companies? Well, it's a supply chain situation. One, it's supply chain, so one, two, three steps up their supply chain, there is a existential water threat, I guarantee you. Whether it's from floods, or from droughts, or it could be from an impact, say, if a community that you're operating in, if wells go dry or the water isn't safe, you don't have a workforce or a community to draw upon or community support. And you're also called upon to, in a sense, be a leader. So you're licensed to operate. You could be at risk if you don't act. Now, what the corporate venture capital crowd can do differently than, say, typical investing crowds, say, the typical banking system, or venture capital is they're a bit more nimble and a little bit more experimental. So in a sense, the CVCs have a license to be curious. It's their job. It's their job to think systemically. Yes, to pull new technologies in that might improve a manufacturing process in a way that saves a bit of money, but they can take bigger risks on bigger problems that are systemic and that are not just within their own castle, so to speak, and get beyond this, I mentioned the term castle resiliency, where you feel like you can build a moat, build a wall, and you're safe. That doesn't work with water. You might stave off a flood, or you might have your own well, but if everybody else is going dry around you, that is an existential threat to your survival. So the CBCs have an opportunity, an opportunity moment to not only deploy capital, but really leadership to show what's possible. And I think that that the VCs need to see that and particularly the startup community because there are a lot of companies in these existential threat spaces that are started with a lot of heart and sweat and great thinking but they die in the vine because they don't have that pull through and they can't get through the valley of death because procurement processes or the crisis doesn't align necessarily perfectly with the finance, with the de-risking and the technology at the right time.

Steve 7:19

Is this notion, this understanding of water sustainability as both a driver as well as a potential risk if you don't have it to the organization, is this on the minds of the agenda, or on the agenda of venture capitalists, of corporate venture capitalists, of boards, do they see this? Because you tell a compelling story, you told a compelling story here as part of your session and the panel you moderated. Where does water security fall on sort of these decision makers list of priorities in your view?

J Carl 7:53

So water has consistently fallen off the top priorities, the top priority list. It's always been, okay, well we'll deal with water later. one global executive of a top, 10 brand who water is part of their DNA quite literally and massive part of their supply chain they deal in food and other products he said as a CEO I need water to be on my desk every day I can't put it there every day because I have a hundred other things I have to deal with so I need my team and the pressure from outside to be pushing water back up to the top every day because we'll take it for granted until it's gone. And then when it's gone, it's too late. So, for example, the executive of a major top 10 bank called me before the World Economic Forum and said, hey, I thought of you. Bad news, right? People call me. I thought of you because I saw an M&A deal across my desk. It's not for us, but I saw an M&A deal where investors are looking to offload a facility in a Central American country that's under severe water threat, water risk. And so you have investors now looking at where are the stranded assets and looking to get out. But those are kind of the first movers. Then you also have companies that truly haven't internalized the water risks and can kind of take it for granted. They might do some CSR around it and, you know, yeah, we provide some money for wells and sanitation and schools. Great for us. That's not systemic. What's different right now is the future's here, is that this isn't a goal for 2030 or 2050. All you have to do is stick your head up a little bit and you can't unsee it. You can't unsee that Mexico's in severe water stress. You can't unsee the migration of humans in certain parts of the world. The fact that you may have a facility in Bangalore Bangalore is on a day zero risk list. Bangalore could run out of water. And so it's an existential threat. It's a risk. It's a risk to their supply chain, to their manufacturing, to their community, to their employees. And so it is being internalized. But a lot of companies are still way behind.

Steve 10:21

Whose job is it in the organization? When the CEO says, I want water to be on my desk, is it the finance organization? Is it procurement? Whose job is it? Is it risk?

J Carl 10:33

It's a good question. So it's usually the risk officer's job to put water to the top. But imagine you're a risk officer, you're dealing with everything else. Now, there have been some really crude wake-up calls. So besides the food industry, look at the technology and data, particularly chip manufacturers and data centers. So look at, we'll take Microsoft, for example. for a while now, probably the last five to seven years, a pretty significant commitment on water and community engagement, doing the right thing because they see it's important that they build their markets. Microsoft did some water research, community research in communities in Africa to look at what happens if communities don't have access to safe water. Well, they're not going to be customers. They're not going to get education. Water was the through line, so Microsoft invested invested more on the CSR and impact. Then, data centers hit. And what about two years ago, this big wave with AI and data center use. Well, the reason data centers are so important in the water world is that most data centers are still cooled by water and need massive amounts of water for cooling. And there's new technology coming down the pike to make that more efficient, but what we've built today and what they're still building, whether it's Microsoft or any and other big cloud services need massive amounts of water. And so now you've got a company like Microsoft, so the water, they had a water person to start with, so they're carrying the flag, right? But now you have engineering, you have data center, now you have innovation because we need to build data centers that don't use water. You have government affairs. What kind of regulatory risks are we facing? For instance, you know, certain, cities in India have different rules. So if water levels get below a certain rate, industry comes first. In other cities, people come first. What's our risk? Right. And so, anyway, so bottom line is that some companies are internalized all the way across to their innovation, to their chief science officer. I know Microsoft has done this. Others, it's relegated to Jenkins in the basement.

Steve 12:55

Ah, yeah. So the very best companies are bringing together a multidisciplinary group of people, right? Yeah. Product development, engineering,

J Carl 13:01

IT, et cetera. All the way across the way, yeah, yeah. Because they see the existential risks. And then you look at, also, the government affairs is really important. and even hydrologists and looking upstream because if you're promised the water and the water doesn't exist, that doesn't really help you if you're building a multi, multi-billion dollar chip fabrication plant.

Steve 13:30

Water is life. Yet across the globe, this vital resource faces unprecedented challenges from scarcity to pollution. At Circle of Blue, we confront these issues head on. Circle of Blue is a nonprofit organization dedicated to delivering trusted, frontline journalism, data analysis, and convening solutions to the world's water crisis. We uncover the intricate connections between water, food, and energy, providing insights that drive informed decisions. Our award-winning reporting has shed light on critical issues from the water energy nexus in China to groundwater depletion in the United States. By combining investigative journalism with scientific data, we empower communities and leaders to tackle water challenges effectively. Join us in making a difference. Visit circleofblue.org to explore our in-depth coverage and learn how you can support our mission. Together, we can ensure a sustainable water future for all. innovation and open innovation and where in the world that happens, right? You immediately, whether it's building things, traditional manufacturing, whether it's innovation in technology, at least in my regard, I sort of think of the areas in the world that rise to the top, Silicon Valley, Startup Nation, Israel, right? Manufacturing, whether it is in Mexico or whether it is in China. To me, this water scarcity is a common theme around these people. I'm just curious in your point of view, I don't know if there's an actual question here, but there's sort of this odd intersection that I see, say, of all of this innovation is happening in these spots, and there's this intersection that all of these spots also have water issues, water scarcity problems. Why is that? Do you have a point of view or any insight on that?

J Carl 15:42

Yeah, so, well, it's interesting. I mean, you come back to, take water for granted until it's gone, and then you look at where the greatest water stress is. Well, so Israel's big area of water stress, they figured out how to practically count every drop. So some of the best irrigation technology and water management technology has come out of Israel because it's had to. They had to manage the water because there just isn't. You can't assume anything as far as water supplies. As far as the innovation goes or the push for it, there's nothing better than hardcore pressure of an emergency. But the US has an amazing water infrastructure system We built it, and then we didn't invest in it. So it's coming back up to speed, but you've read about PFAS chemicals, lead in pipes and whatnot. So we've been behind in the U.S., but look at what's happening in the Middle East, for example. You have UAE that is in a friendly competition with Saudi Arabia around water tech. So yes, desalination, which is pulling sea water out, whether you boil the water, very expensive, energy intensive, or filter it. Desalination is one approach. But both UAE has an XPRIZE. They funded an XPRIZE. How are we going to solve water crisis? New versions of desal with low energy or solar powered or whatever. And Saudi Arabia is also standing up a major fund. At last report, it was $6 billion for innovation outside the country, really around water security and what that means is back to the basics drinking water sanitation food energy this nexus and health and so what saudi knows is that they need to be able to drive the technology and that they can also invest in building security outside their borders because they need food security, but they can't grow their own food. They don't have the water. So let's invest in other countries and other areas to bring stability and to bring a reliance on and a pull for new technology.

Steve 18:00

When drawing on that, And I think about the United States and being a global leader in ag tech and farming. How does that play in sort of our competitive advantage here more locally, but how does that sort of permeate? I don't mean to be a water pun if it is, but how does that permeate in terms of other parts of the world and influence in other parts of the world?

J Carl 18:25

Well, it's huge because actually, ironically, one of the most influential organizations water policies or documents that affects global water policy is the U.S. Farm Bill.

Steve 18:36

Oh, really?

J Carl 18:37

Yeah. So, you know, commodity trading, what we're going to grow, what we're going to ship, who grows it, subsidies, all those other fun things. And so when we look at the U.S., yes, we're incredibly innovative on our agritech and automation and measuring soil moisture content and AI for better cropping and even engineering crops and growing the right things in the right places. Well, we can do that, but there are a lot of subsidies that are entirely out of sync. So we're still, in the central US, heavily subsidized growing corn for biofuels, for ethanol. Does that make sense that we're draining a central fossil aquifer, water that was deposited thousands of years ago underground, depleting it in our central U.S. for ethanol? So basically we're subsidizing water depletion to grow corn in the central U.S. So misalignment there of policy and politics. Interesting. And then the same thing, and we also have follow-ons because we're finding stories that we found cancer clusters, particularly in children, in these farm communities because we're seeing a concentration of nitrates and atrazine in the groundwater from ag runoff. And so that's heartbreaking. And it's also a major cost for these little tiny towns that now have to figure out how they're going to install a $5 million water filtration system. And 1,500 people, do you want to pay $100 a month for your water bill? And so most people don't want to pay a water bill at all. And then you look at California and the Colorado River, we still have farms that have water rights that are using flood irrigation. And so entirely ancient, right? And in most cases, huge water waster because a lot of the water evaporates. But it's because of water rights. It's because of legacy water rights. I own that much water from the Colorado River, and this is what I'm going to get. kind of a reset in somebody. That's what will happen in the Colorado River Basin. There's still a big reset that needs to happen.

Steve 20:57

So interesting. This hits close to home and resonates. I live in southern Illinois, tiny country town, covered by farm fields. And this notion that says my neighbors are putting roof or supporting their families by corn, et cetera, et cetera. But I recall 10 years ago, 15 years ago, being in an audience and hearing a a researcher from Toyota actually suggests the same thing, that says, what is the trade-off of all of the corn and all of the runoff in terms of the impact, all of that, he literally said, flowing into the Mississippi River, when the technology around this and the scaling around this is not even proven. It's absolutely interesting, and it hits close to home to where I

J Carl 21:43

live as well. Yeah, absolutely, and that whole, there's a whole reset of assumptions, and that's the only thing that, when we make these crises visible And the more we're able to tell the story in a way that people see themselves in the picture, whether they're in rural Nebraska or Illinois or Michigan, then we can start testing these assumptions and saying, okay, how are we going to use our water supply? And you start to see, when we did a project in Nebraska on cancer clusters and children, it was heartbreaking. Absolutely. I went to a high school football practice in one of these, a flyover town. There's a church, there's a water tower, and there's a football field. And I went to high school FOOTBALL PRACTICE ONE AFTERNOON, AND THE KIDS HAD YELLOW RIBBON STICKERS ON THEIR HELMETS FOR FRIENDS WHO DIED OF CANCER.

Steve 22:29

WOW.

J Carl 22:29

AND SO YOU START, AND I GOT A CALL FROM A NEBRASKA STATE SENATOR AFTER WE PUBLISHED THE SERIES, AND HE SAID HE APPRECIATED THE SERIES. AND HE GOT CALLS FROM CONSTITUENTS SAYING, WHAT ABOUT OUR KIDS? SO IT CAME RIGHT BACK TO THIS IS A, YOU KNOW, NOT A BIG ECONOMIC ISSUE. IT'S NOT AGAINST AGRICULTURE. IT'S ABOUT OUR KIDS. IT'S A HUMAN ISSUE. IT'S A HUMAN ISSUE. an issue, and so how do you, you know, how do we look ourselves in the mirror and say, okay, this needs to change? And it really is, it's a communications and framing issue, because most of the solutions we have exist. We know how to test the water, we know how to treat it, we know how to move it. We just have to, as systems break, we have to be prepared with better systems.

Steve 23:17

It seems perspective is a game is a piece of this. So I would imagine that what you just described, seeing those children with their stickers, getting calls from, that is a black swan moment in that little community, right? I have to believe that there are different levels of black swan events and some would say that it's already happened based on where you are, based on how it impacts you. Do we have a bigger black swan event coming where people have this sort of aha, okay we have to fix it, has it already happened? What's your point of view on that?

J Carl 23:56

Yeah, well these black swan events are happening and it's just often times we don't connect the dots, or in the water world we'd say connect the drops. Oh yeah. But the thing is is that we have better predictive technology, we have AI modeling, and we have just years of data and anecdotes, we know pretty much where and when the crises will happen. And particularly in the water space, we've been horrible at responding in advance, at being proactive. So it's like, okay, water crisis hits Cape Town, right? Although Cape Town actually put in motions this really interesting case study, how they dealt with their reservoirs were reaching 13% and dropping. And so they literally did change the paradigm through communications is number one, be transparent, what's going on, why the water system is, why there's no water coming out of your pipe, and it was affecting people of all demographics up and down, people of all income levels were waiting in line for water. But, now what if we can pre-game, it's almost like building a market back to our venture and innovation world. What if we know when these black swan events or gray swan events are going to happen, and we know there's a list of basically 300 cities at high water risk. There's on top a higher list of water risk, like again using the example of Mexico City, where we know it's, first off, it's got massive infrastructure problems, the city's sinking, it's in a dry region, it's one of the most populated cities in the world, and they've always had water problems, but now it could become a black swan water crisis. So if Mexico City runs out of water, or if all neighborhoods only get water for an hour a day once a week, and if everybody has to pay 40% of their income for water, that's a black swan moment. Now what the venture and innovation crowd needs to do is identify these places and sequence the different, understand what are the What's holding us back? What are the impediments? And so one is, okay, media. Well, we have a fragmented media. Okay, so you can't count on assuming that you can reach everybody through one channel or traditional media. So, okay, we need the communications plan. Then we also need to map the influencers, which you would do if you're running a company or, you know, who are the voices or who's missing? So it's a situational awareness, like walking into a situation room from the satellite to the ground. then you need to put it in, these are the three things, then you need to put it in context so that in this story, this moves to the right side of the brain, there are heroes, victims, and villains. And this is the kind of story, and the villain could be status quo, but this is the kind of story that captures your heart. And this is like, oh, that could be me, that could be my granddaughter, or it is me, right? And then be forceful about this circle and closing the loop on the convening. And don't assume that the right technology is going to rise at the right time that the finance and these other pieces arise. So what we really really need for these black swan or gray swan events is that kind of, you know, mission control meets situation room meets facilitator. So that you align that situation awareness, you align the story, stories, you know, multiple, and then you align the convening the solutions. So that, if you remember the movie Apollo 13, so they had to build a digital digital analog, instead of a digital, or analog twin, not a digital twin, of the spacecraft here on Earth. Here's what they have in space. So we need those Apollo 13 moments where we have the finance people say, we've got capital deploy, but we can't de-risk. Well, okay, so line that up. The World Bank has de-risking tools. And then we can't find bankable deals. Okay, well, then if you de-risk it, yes, it's long deployment to fix pipelines with new technology. But, you know, then you start to align those airplanes so they're in the right sequence, so you're not trying to land a 747 behind a Cessna.

Steve 28:34

So it's partnership and it's an ecosystem working together, but it's the strategy around

J Carl 28:39

it. And it's the strategy, and it's not rocket science. It just, it takes, like you know, you have to get the story and tell it in a way, it's like almost a core story, but you carve off, this is for the economists, this is for Jenkins and the basement managers risk. This is for the general public, and this is what the CEO is going to read, and then this is what the president is going to say. That's the level of sophistication. It's not hard. PR world does it all the time. Car campaigns do it all the time.

Steve 29:08

And then talking about it in the way that is most important to whoever that can

J Carl 29:12

stick to it. Exactly, and target it. It's the same story, it was just targeted a little differently. It's like the same core icebergs, different flags on top. And then that, back to that, trust is a critical critical word right now because of misinformation. Water is particularly contentious in areas of conflict around the world. It's up 50% from last year over water.

Steve 29:37

Talk about that a little bit more. You mentioned migration earlier in some of our one-off conversations. You mentioned some of these more damaged parts of the world. There's more conflict areas. Talk about how water has been a driver behind some of that or an influencer of some of that.

J Carl 29:52

Yeah, so there's a whole world of kind of water diplomacy. And the US actually had a water negotiator at the State Department who would help negotiate transboundary issues with other countries because it was so intrinsic and important for our own national security of the U.S., whether it's supply chains, food, or just stability. Well, what happens when you run out of water? If your well runs dry, if you're in Syria, farmers move to the city. Simplifying, complicated story, but then you end up at an influx of different cultures and extra pressure in a city that really can't handle that. And then what happens is you have the long tails, whether it's Syria somewhere else of the potential for conflict or civil war. And you end up with migrants moving and some other things that kind of lined up. And then you end up with big pressure, say, even on elections and a big fear of the other. And so same thing in Mexico. It was 2006. We did a project in a town called Tehuacan. And Tehuacan had factory farms there growing pigs and chickens, right, using groundwater for basically flushing the sewage out, right, just to float massive amounts of water. And so they're draining the groundwater, and the villages around this basin were going dry. Their wells were going dry. I interviewed one woman whose son and nephew had left her village because their well had gone dry, and they'd moved to Mexico City, and last she heard from them was they were headed north to the U.S., and she never heard from him again.

Steve 31:48

When you think about it in these grand things and these big innovations, these big ideas, and you can relate that so easily. to a grandmother in Mexico that has not seen family members close to her because there is no water. And it happens billions and billions of times. The scale of this, I think it really opens up the aperture and makes an understanding of that. Let me ask you, certainly a lot of trouble, a lot of complications, a lot of gray swans, black swans around the world. At the same time, we are living in an age of exponential innovation. It gets faster and faster and faster. Can we fix this? And what's it going to take?

J Carl 32:31

Yeah, so, well, fixing this. I'm afraid to define this. I'm just joking. But I think it takes that same level of the Apollo missions that, first off, you have to understand that, yes, we can. We have to think out of the box and test our assumptions back to, oh, the water will always flow. But then we also have to say, oh, why are we talking about pushing water at high pressure through a filter membrane that we have to throw away after so many uses and build these huge plants that use huge amounts of energy? Isn't there another way to get salt out of water and then also make the most of the water that we do get? And so there are companies, innovation companies, that are looking at using AI to, in a sense, re-engineer, rethink physics and fluid dynamics and just ask better questions. And there's one company that has figured out a new filter, it's made out of ceramic, designed by AI, using fluid dynamics, and they think that they can turn it into full-scale desal. Right now they've figured out how to get minerals and metals out of water through this filter. But, okay, great, so massive filters, you have to ship all around the world. No, what can you do? They make filters out of ceramic. Oh, why does a company even need to be a manufacturer? put 3D printers at the location of the filtration plants. And when the filters go bad or foul, they're ceramic, grind them up and you've got your substrate again and you push it back through your 3D printer. And so things that we haven't even imagined yet and scenarios we haven't been able to test. And so the thing that makes me hopeful is that level of, okay, you know, what if, but then also being able to predict the future better and test different scenarios. And so then we can say, oh, we can make it visible that we're draining our aquifers in central U.S., and here's the heart and soul, but here's the real data on child mortality, and make it real, and so you create forcing moments and positive tipping points. And so what scares me is that we are so incremental, particularly in the venture world it's like okay i got it i got a widget yeah yeah it's going to be a winner and it is and it gets acquired and it goes into the ecosystem of the corporate world or whatever and it makes a nice little difference somewhere but it's not systems change

Steve 35:12

i mean part of that was that systems change right again in a free market economy Is there money in this? Is there profitability in driving that? I mean, the human aspect, the why to do it from a human, from a risk mitigation perspective is very clear. Yeah. Is there profitability in this?

J Carl 35:32

I think it's, we're going to face a real kind of reset in Profitability, I think, is on a timeline. Because I think it's, first off, the first rule of finances is hold on to what you have. Don't lose it, right? And so, to be profitable, figuring out, I think building the new markets of, so when you're talking about consumers and you're talking about when they're more food and water secure, incomes go up, social pressures go down, and you can define your profitability through a healthy workforce, a healthy community, your leadership, your brand leadership, there'll be a huge expectation, more and more, that there is a brand leadership. So the immediate profitability, you're going to make a billion dollars tomorrow on an acquisition, that still remains to be seen. But with the right tools in the right place, it's what we have to do. So I think we have to redefine and add some items to the balance sheet as far as what does profitability mean today and reset so that it's not quarterly. So Unilever famously dropped their quarterly reports because it wasn't helping the sustainability model and mission of the company.

Steve 37:02

That's all for today's episode of Inside CVC. Thank you to J. Carl Ganter for joining me. And thank you to our supporters at UPath Advisors. To learn more about how UPath is helping organizations ranging from multinational corporations to startups navigate capital investment strategies in the ever-changing, disruptive, and uncertain world of open innovation, visit upath.com. That's the letter U hyphen path dot com. Join us for our next episode of Inside CVC as we continue conversations with ecosystem of leaders in venture capital and bring you insights that help shape tomorrow.